Thread: 16K Shapton

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    #11
    To be honest I don't quite get what you mean here Sham, Tom's blog is about that there is no such thing as "overhoning" really, and he sure doesn't say that those chips in the red rings are a result of overhoning, quite the opposite...
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    #12
    Administrator hibudgl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blix View Post
    To be honest I don't quite get what you mean here Sham, Tom's blog is about that there is no such thing as "overhoning" really, and he sure doesn't say that those chips in the red rings are a result of overhoning, quite the opposite...
    If he doesn't say that is overhoning then that is great.
    What Shapton 16k or any other finishing synthetic does to the edge is chips.
    Deep scratches what is in the pictures why they are in there?
    If you guys hone by moving from 1 grit to next just simply taking away early scratches from previous stone?
    In This case scratches shouldn't be in there right?
    If you hone straight razor in natural stone and in the last finishing stage move to 16k shapton you will have exact chips.
    IN case you will go to 30k shapton then you will have edge break down.
    There is a such a thing over honing. if you know what you are doing You will get over honed edge very easily.
    do you have any good natural finishing stones?
    if yes try yourself and see what happens to your edges.

    GL
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    #13
    Moderator MODINE's Avatar
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    Over honing a straight razor is very real. To over hone a razor, you first have to learn how to properly hone a razor.. to final finish.

    If bevel setting is the foundation of the edge, then final finishing is the apex, zenith or pinnacle of the edge.

    Mike
    "Focus on where the razors spine is during the shave." This will allow you to make pitch adjustments to the blade angle reducing the chance of cuts.
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    #14
    This helped me a lot! Thank you.

    You should never pay attention to the bevel. if you would like to learn to hone properly pay attention to the edge not the bevel.
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    #15
    Senior Member shooter74743's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MODINE View Post
    Over honing a straight razor is very real. To over hone a razor, you first have to learn how to properly hone a razor.. to final finish.

    If bevel setting is the foundation of the edge, then final finishing is the apex, zenith or pinnacle of the edge.

    Mike
    Yes sir, it is quite real. Shapton GS's are my primary honing system & they work very well as a system. They are very aggressive/fast when comparing to the other synthetics. In some of my "edge chasing" that I do on my own razors I have really found that it is easier to overhone with them than the Naniwa's...but that is my experience.

    After my initial bevel set, I personally don't use magnification all that much any more. I use the magnification to ensure that the entire edge is smooth and even, if it's not, I keep at it until it's "right". Afterwards I just go by feel really. After that "stiction" starts I'll go a couple more strokes and then to the next stone.

    One of these days I want to do an experiment, alternating shapton & nani's to really see if the whole "best if used as a system" theory is true. I'll have to prove this to myself, but I will share the experience. They are two totally different types of stone. If generalizing, I would call them hard and soft stones. In sword polishing, the practice is to use soft stones on hard blades and hard stones on soft blades. You can hone pretty much any razor on either of the systems, but that practice is a good starting point if you have both systems.
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hibudgl View Post
    If he doesn't say that is overhoning then that is great.
    What Shapton 16k or any other finishing synthetic does to the edge is chips.
    Deep scratches what is in the pictures why they are in there?
    If you guys hone by moving from 1 grit to next just simply taking away early scratches from previous stone?
    In This case scratches shouldn't be in there right?
    If you hone straight razor in natural stone and in the last finishing stage move to 16k shapton you will have exact chips.
    IN case you will go to 30k shapton then you will have edge break down.
    There is a such a thing over honing. if you know what you are doing You will get over honed edge very easily.
    do you have any good natural finishing stones?
    if yes try yourself and see what happens to your edges.

    GL
    I think we are kind of saying the same thing. If you don't hone enough before moving to the next stone, you'll have deep scratches that will cause chips when the edge becomes thin enough, and with such an aggressive stone as a Shapton, that'll happen fast if you're not careful.
    IME I have no problems getting good edges off my 16k as long as I make sure I do good work before I go to it, and keep it at a small number of light laps. I've never tried the 30k.
    Yes I have a few nice naturals as well, a Lv5+ Ozuku Asagi from Maksim, A La Petite Blanche, a La Grosse Blanche and a Les Lat Coti.
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    #17
    Administrator hibudgl's Avatar
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    As i know Tom is in here and he will come over we will have discussion about his blog.
    This is my experience about Shaptons and Naniwas.
    shapton until 8k is fine
    shapton 16k and 30k is trouble.
    Naniwas until 10k is fine
    Naniwa 12 is trouble.
    Sham
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    #18
    Yeah it would be cool if Tom chipped in here
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    #19
    Hello all!

    Thanks for inviting me over here, Sham

    A few things about the overhoning blog post for clarification:

    1. The pictures are not from a razor, they are from a chef knife
    2. I did not sharpen that knife
    3. I'm not sure of the actual progression, but it started with a belt sander, switched to stones (I think Glass, but not sure which stones) and ended up with at least a .125 micron CBN edge.

    So, the scratches that are circled are most likely from the belt sander, which have come back to haunt the final edge as the higher surface of the bevel slowly got abraded down to the depth of the initial scratches. Based on that train of thought, it has clearly become a case of underhoning, not overhoning. The basic argument from that post is to show how important it is to remove the previous grit's scratches - not to blame a high grit stone for the chip-out.

    If you follow a certain method of using circles or switching directions when honing razors, underhoning becomes even more relevant. Here's a picture progression of a transition between a diamond plate, Shapton Pro 1500, 2K and 5K Shapton Pro. (I did this on the Wicked Edge. Pictures are ~1mmx1mm)

    You can see how good things look at the lower levels and the finished edge. But the transition from 2K to 5K is what I call the "critical leap" and you can see from this picture below just how "deep" the scratches are at the edge (which are a combination of all the previous grits, not necessarily just the 2K) compared to the 5K behind them. You must go until you get those scratches out. 10 light strokes isn't usually going to do it... You can also see just how masked the edge becomes when using medium grits stones from the seemingly perfect 2K edge. Matte finishes also mask a lot....



    Another issue to address here is that (with all due respect) Sham only has the 1K and 16K Glass. Yes, there are some issues with the 16K glass that can present themselves in an all-Shapton progression, but I think the problems you have with the 16K and 30K is that they are still revealing the imperfections of the other stones.

    Also, many of the other stones work on the premise of polishing the grooves (pyramid method with the Nortons, for example), and other stones have a lower abrasive concentration with a higher polish (8K and 10K Superstones) - both which allow for much more inconsistency in the honing method since the polish works to "glorify" the finish rather than making it a "true" finish of the advertised grit. IOW, they never get to this level of clarity and precision that the Shaptons give to reveal the underlying problem of underhoning, and since they did more strokes and saw breakdown, it made perfect sense to call it overhoning.

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    #20
    Welcome to R&S and thank you for your clarification. I definitely learned something and that's what it's all about!
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